Inverted quotes

[Aldous U]

A certain small but inconsistent problem with Nisus Pro led to my returning reluctantly to Word, but I have just downloaded the 1.1 update hoping that this problem would not recur. Unfortunately, it does. I use a lot of dialogue in my writing and almost every end quote inverts (as in faces the wrong way) and continues to do so with repeat attempts until I make a space and type it again. This would be fine if it was my practice to leave a space before and after quote marks, but I don't.

I wonder if there's some preference I should set to make sure that this does not happen. Any thoughts, anyone?

[Ruchama]

I can't say that I have met this problem. could you give some details concerning the language/font you are using? could you perhaps put a picture of an example?

[Aldous U]

It happens with all fonts. Here's an example, if it shows up when pasted:

‘Einstein would not have considered such a premise,‘ said Black.

[Ruchama]

one thing I could see is that when the quotation marks are not paired (i.e. one is missing) then the next one will be a 'left' mark. meaning- if you put a mark after a text has been typed or if you do it with no spaces etc this could happen.

‘Einstein would’‘not’have considered’

maybe someone else has a more systematic answer..

[xiamenese]

Looking at the example in your post, I thought you had a space between the comma and the ‘ but when I copied and pasted that stretch it seems not.

1) Does this also happen with double quotes?

2) How are you entering your quotes? With the ordinary key ' or with Alt-] and Shift-Alt-] ?

3) Have you done anything in Quickfix or added a glossary entry (in the Preferences: Quickfix), perhaps by accident, which is changing all single quotes to left-hand typographers quotes?

4) Are you using some third-party keyboard shortcut manager which is interfering with the system settings?

5) Have you somehow switched keyboard layout?

I can't think what else would have an effect like that.

Mark

[Aldous U]

1) Does this also happen with double quotes?
I don't often use double quotes, but in tests run just now they come out as they should. That's not to say they wouldn't also start to invert if I used them all the time. Glitches usually occur when you're not trying for them, I find.

2) How are you entering your quotes? With the ordinary key ' or with Alt-] and Shift-Alt-] ?
I'm using the standing single quote key, nothing more complex than that as it's unnecessary.

3) Have you done anything in Quickfix or added a glossary entry (in the Preferences: Quickfix), perhaps by accident, which is changing all single quotes to left-hand typographers quotes?
No. But that's the odd thing. The quotes aren't always inverted. They're quite unpredictable.

4) Are you using some third-party keyboard shortcut manager which is interfering with the system settings?
Not even sure what that means, so I'm guessing no. I just sit at my keyboard writing all day. I don't fiddle much.

5) Have you somehow switched keyboard layout?
No.

Sorry, I'm guessing that my replies aren't much help.

[Ruchama]

do you insert quotes as you type or do you put them later?

[xiamenese]

Hmm ... by keyboard shortcut manager I meant anything like Quickeys, or Typeit4me, anything like that.

As another possibility, when you're typing at speed, do you find you occasionally put a space after a word, a comma or other punctuation mark without thinking about it, and then put in the quote mark ... and go back later, even immediately, and delete the space? If you put a space after the last letter or punctuation mark and then enter a quote it will be a left quote not a right quote. If you subsequently delete the space, the quote mark will remain a left quote.

Mark

[Aldous U]

Q. do you insert quotes as you type or do you put them later?

A. I insert quotes as I type.

****

Mark: As another possibility, when you're typing at speed, do you find you occasionally put a space after a word, a comma or other punctuation mark without thinking about it, and then put in the quote mark ... and go back later, even immediately, and delete the space? If you put a space after the last letter or punctuation mark and then enter a quote it will be a left quote not a right quote. If you subsequently delete the space, the quote mark will remain a left quote.

A. I'm not a very speedy typist, and the sporadically inverted quote marks (it only happens with the closing ones, and with no other punctuation marks) appear exactly in the right place, just the wrong way round. Is it possible that I'm the only user that this happens to???

[Ruchama]

I don't know whether you are the only one, but it may be easier for you to work initially with plain quotes and only later convert them to curly ones. I mean all together, not seperately. ( I did try o find an operation for 'pairing quote marks' but couldn't. I seem to remember a word processor that had this optionbut maybe I am mistaken. )

[Elbrecht]

‘Einstein would not have considered such a premise,‘ said Black.

Not sure at all - but you posted U+0218, i.e. LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK at both ends. But that could be forum related as well...

So please select quotation marks concerned in your Nisus document and Edit/Convert/To Unicode Code Point. What code points do you get? Same/different? There are a couple of single quotation marks that sometimes get mixed up - mostly language related...

HE

[greenmorpher]

I have never struck this, despite lots of typing and lots of quotes.

I do have a suggestion for a poke under the hood, though, which might be worth trying just to see what's going on.

In a document with the quotation mark errors:

1) Select all text

2) Go Edit > Convert > Smart Quotes to Plain Quotes

All the quote marks should change to plain quotes.

3) Select all text again

4) Go Edit > Convert > Plain Quotes to Smart Quotes.

Are the quotes all the right way around now?

(This seems a cunning little investigation to me, but having written it out, I now have no idea how the results might be interpreted! )

BUT this suggests the workaround.

In the Preferences > Quickfix ... UNcheck "Use Smart Punctuation (includes "curly" quotes).

This will leave your document with straight quotes. When you complete the document, select all and convert to Smart Quotes.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- the secrets of how type can help you to sell or influence, now at the new low price of $29.95. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com or Amazon.

[greenmorpher]

Just writing then ote about nomenclature of this stuff, Aldous, raised thequestion -- does your single quote mark misbehave when marking a contraction, e.g. hasn't?

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes" -- the secrets of how type can help you to sell or influence, now at the new low price of $29.95. See the book at http://www.worsleypress.com or Amazon.

[Aldous U]

Some potentially useful suggestions here - thanks, everyone - but having run some tests I find that things don't improve. Deselecting 'curly quotes' and then re-establishing them seemed a good idea, but it didn't work. Surprisingly, even the deselection failed: the quotes remained inverted. I've tried typing with plain quotes too, and they still invert every now and then (inconsistently). Have also tried switching fonts, thinking that Verdana (the one I'm using for this particular story) might be at fault; but the same thing even happens in Times.

And Geoff: the quotes haven't yet inverted in a contraction such as hasn't, but - dammit! - they've just started to invert for the first time at the START of a piece of dialogue!

Couldn't be anything to do with Leopard, could it? I installed Leopard before buying Nisus, so you wouldn't think so, but...

[Ruchama]

I think you should send a file (or a paragraph) to Nisus people, so that they can determine whether it is a bug or a fault.. we would be interested to hear the result.