images and html rendition

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feat
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images and html rendition

Post by feat »

In my Nisus documents, most of my images are linked back to OmniGraffle.

The problem is those images are converted to pdf when rendering the document as html: unfortunately, outside the Macintosh world, no browser that I know of can display pdf images inside html documents, and none of my clients use Macintoshes... and since the document is an evolutive one, I need many renditions a day.

Is there a way to render images to png files each time I render the document to html, or do I have to do this manually?

I know I could use OmniGraffle to do this, or even batch-convert the images using GraphicConverter's batch feature, but I'd still need to patch each hyperlink manually to complete the process. Clearly, this isn't a convenient way to handle hundreds of links...

Any other [convoluted] solution?
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greenmorpher
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by greenmorpher »

As a website builder, the first question I ask is the format of the graphics as they come out of Omnigraffle and are pasted into NWP and the final format you want them to be in as you export your NWP document.

It seems that this is where your problem is. Ominigraffle is a vector program and you want a raster image out of it -- or at least, our of NWP and into your HTML page. So you need Omnigraffle to render the vectors to a raster image as it exports them, or failing that, you want NWP to render the vector images to raster as you export/save to HTML.

I think the best hope is the former. Ask the Omni people whether they can introduce a PNG output filter so you can render your Omnigraffle images to raster on export/save as/copy from Omnigraffle. A key factor in doing this would be for them to retain a connection between the rendered image and the original so Linkback would still work.

Another possibility is to simply make available PDF documents rather than HTML.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes", the secrets of how type can help you to sell or influence, and "How to Start and Produce a magazine or Newsletter", now at the new low price of $29.95. See these books and more at http://www.worsleypress.com or Amazon.
feat
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by feat »

Thanks; greenmorpher: I could have asked the OmniGroup first — but I'm afraid they cannot cope with such a request, precisely because OmniGraffle needs a pdf data structure to linkback while preserving the ability to edit those distinct objects that make up the graph.

So, while I'm happy with that scheme when working solely with Nisus Writer, I only wish the graphics were flattened when rendered, since once exported to html, they won't have to be edited any more: no linkback necessary!
Another possibility is to simply make available PDF documents rather than HTML.
Of course, I do both! But there are two serious drawbacks with pdf files — at least those rendered from Nisus Writer Pro 1.1:
  • they don't show embedded url's
  • they don't have live ToC's
While it's theoretically possible to fix these using Acrobat, it wouldn't be a pratical solution for constantly evolving documents. Hence the need for the html format...
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greenmorpher
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by greenmorpher »

OmniGraffle needs a pdf data structure to linkback while preserving the ability to edit those distinct objects that make up the graph
That's what I was thinking too, feat, but on reflection I thought that since linkback actually opens the program the linked graphic comes from, why shouldn't a rendered image have a link that opens the program AND the file it comes from so that you can make changes to the original file and it then follows the process of previous actions -- it is rendered and takes its place in the NWP document. It seems to me that that shouldn't be too hard provided the rendering process is non-destructive. Doing non-destructive rendering is no impossible dream -- that's how Canvas works and has worked for 15 years whether you are rendering vector to raster or raster to raster.

So, feat, I would suggest you ask the Omni people. It is not rocket science and it would be a very useful feature for many. Of course, the rendering action would need to include some choices about format (e.g. CMYK, RGB, Grayscale), resolution, and type of file (e.g. JPEG, PNG, GIF, TIF). The rendering action could be on export/sdave as.
there are two serious drawbacks with pdf files — at least those rendered from Nisus Writer Pro 1.1:

* they don't show embedded url's
* they don't have live ToC's
Will the hard working Nisus bods groan and cast their eyes heavenward at the suggestion that they could solve this one? Again, many other programs have these capabilities.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes", the secrets of how type can help you to sell or influence, and "How to Start and Produce a magazine or Newsletter", now at the new low price of $29.95. See these books and more at http://www.worsleypress.com or Amazon.
feat
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by feat »

Ah, greenmorpher, thank you for your reflections, but how convoluted your suggestion is... Look: it implies my Nisus documents would then link or contain bitmap images instead of vector graphics, and that rendering the documents to pdf would indeed yield embedded bitmapped graphics — which, for a number of reasons, is far from desirable... And that would mean I'd also have to maintain two distinct versions of my original documents!

Clearly, graphics rendering should be handled from Nisus' level, not OmniGraffle's: that's a job for the converter's framework to decide how text and graphics should be translated for a particular format.

Moreover, the OmniGroup does sell a web browser, OmniWeb, that relies on Apple's WebKit Plug-in API, thus needs no plug to display text or graphics in pdf format: I fear they won't feel concerned with my problem — but I'll ask them anyway.

Meanwhile, this problem only exists because all of the browsers that I know of in the linux world rely on the Netscape Plug-In API: Firefox, Konqueror, Opera — they all need a plug-in to display pdf documents, yet are unable to use it to display embedded pdf graphics...

If anyone had a suggestion for a linux browser that can do just that, I'd gladly pass it on to my students (all of them use gnu/linux environments).
feat
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by feat »

Will the hard working Nisus bods [...] solve this one?
Yes, of course: that would obviously be a radical cure, eschewing the need for html rendition.

If Acrobat can do it, anybody could do the same. The proof is in the pudding: NeoOffice does it by default... As you said, it's probably not rocket science.
Groucho
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by Groucho »

Acrobat tracks headings for TOC through tags. Tags are nothing less than html code for headings (<H1> and </H1> for heading one, <H2> and </H2> for heading two, and so on…). Acrobat (v. 7) has its own tagging capability, but it goes by guesswork and the outcome is a toss-up. Word can tag a pdf. Open Office can too. NWP cannot. Maybe one day Nisus…
But as it is, nothing.
Ask Martin.

Cheers, Henry.
feat
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by feat »

Again: if anyone had a suggestion for a linux browser that can display embedded pdf graphics, I'd gladly pass it on to my students.
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greenmorpher
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by greenmorpher »

Does any browser display embedded PDF graphics? Or am I even more ignorant than I thought I was?

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes", the secrets of how type can help you to sell or influence, and "How to Start and Produce a magazine or Newsletter", now at the new low price of $29.95. See these books and more at http://www.worsleypress.com or Amazon.
dshan
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by dshan »

greenmorpher wrote:Does any browser display embedded PDF graphics? Or am I even more ignorant than I thought I was?
The previously mentioned OmniWeb, plus Safari 3.x, Firefox 3.0 (with the http://code.google.com/p/firefox-mac-pdf plugin) all do.
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mrennie
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by mrennie »

dshan wrote:The previously mentioned OmniWeb, plus Safari 3.x, Firefox 3.0 (with the http://code.google.com/p/firefox-mac-pdf plugin) all do.
They display PDF files alright, but I'm not sure they can display embedded PDF files, i.e. PDF files that are referred to by regular HTML documents.
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Elbrecht
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by Elbrecht »

It's easy -

give it a try - I have a couple of "embedded" PDFs running with Safari...

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greenmorpher
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by greenmorpher »

Elbrecht sez:
I have a couple of "embedded" PDFs running with Safari...
Give us a URL, Elbrecht, I would like to have a look at one.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

"Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes", the secrets of how type can help you to sell or influence, and "How to Start and Produce a magazine or Newsletter", now at the new low price of $29.95. See these books and more at http://www.worsleypress.com or Amazon.
feat
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by feat »

iCab, Omniweb and Safari all use Apple's web kit and can display pdf images hyperlinked with standard img tags.

Camino and Opera can't: they're based on Netscape API.
Last edited by feat on 2008-07-15 11:22:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Elbrecht
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Re: images and html rendition

Post by Elbrecht »

greenmorpher wrote:Elbrecht sez:
I have a couple of "embedded" PDFs running with Safari...
Give us a URL, Elbrecht, I would like to have a look at one.
Cheers, Geoff
Well - it depends on your provider too:

1) it works for me with "1und1", i.e. "puretec" - go:
http://www.sir.elbrecht.com/sir.html

2) but it doesn't with dotMac/MobileMe so far:
http://homepage.mac.com/elbrecht/sir.html

3) and it surely works home at your Desktop...

BTW threetimes the same PDF - re-defined by Width/Height:

<html>
<head>
<title>sir.pdf</title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="EEEEEE">
<table width="422" height="756" align=center>
<tr>
<td align=center>
<img border=0 height=211 width=211 src="sir.pdf">
<img border=0 height=378 width=211 src="sir.pdf">
<img border=0 height=211 width=378 src="sir.pdf">
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>

HE
MacBook Pro i5
SSD 840/850 Pro
High Sierra 10.13.6
Nisus Writer Pro 3.4
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