A Problem with Case

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Elian Gonzalez
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A Problem with Case

Post by Elian Gonzalez » 2008-09-04 15:34:38

Okay, I don't know if this issue is because I still am using the trial version or not, but....

I exported a couple text columns from a database to a text file, opened it in Nisus Writer Pro so I could massage the text (specifically, properly capitalizing titles, e.g., 'A mound of mud,' to 'A Mound of Mud'.)

When I finished and imported this file (text file, and being sure to save it often) into the database, I notice that my titles all did not reflect the work I did changing the case. Confused, I re-opened Nisus to see that my work looked like 'A mound of mud.'

I did this twice and noticed the same problem. Having to switch to Word, there was no problem importing my file into the database with these case changes intact.

So my question is, did this happen because I am using the demo version? I hope that is not the case.

Groucho
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Groucho » 2008-09-05 00:36:11

I guess you selected Format > Character Case > Display as Capitalized. This only will show the text "as if" it were capitalized, and only works within NWP or NWE. For a real capitalization select Edit > Convert > To Capitalized.
Hope this will help.

Cheer, Henry.

Elian Gonzalez
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Elian Gonzalez » 2008-09-05 05:15:41

Wow, I think you're right, thanks.

I don't like sounding picky or dismissive, but such a thing makes *no* sense at all, at least on the surface. It would not occur to me that such a option would appear in two places: why would one merely want to "show" as formatted but have to "convert" to actually achieve the result? It's not like you couldn't undo the changes if you felt you made a mistake.

Curious.....

Groucho
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Groucho » 2008-09-05 05:29:36

The "Display as Capitalized" feature can be applied to a style. I think there is no such style definition as Capitalized in rtf, I mean not the way bold or italics are defined, for example. That is why you have to actually convert the text, which is like selecting the first letter of each word and turning it into its corresponding uppercase one.

Cheers, Henry

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greenmorpher
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by greenmorpher » 2008-09-05 14:46:55

I still can't see the need for "Display as Capitalized" or whatever. Convert, convert, I cry! :P

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard, Business Writer & Publisher

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Groucho
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Groucho » 2008-09-06 00:08:18

I use "Display as" in style definitions for subheadings and other things. Now they are all-caps and now they are small-caps, depending on the whim. With a phrase like "The Concept of the Time" converting into all-caps won't allow you to return to the original. That is, applying a "Convert to Lowercase" command, the phrase becomes "the concept of the time" and the correct capitalization gets lost. This doesn't happen with the "Display as" command, which you can reverse whenever you like. See what I mean? Of course, if you plan to export the file you will not use the "Display as" command. You'd rather convert, then.

Cheers, Henry.

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martin
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by martin » 2008-09-10 16:02:10

Henry is right on here- using "display as" instead of "convert" gives you the ability to not only include the case change as part of a style definition, but also allows future edits to be integrated as needed to preserve the desired capitalization.

One clarification:
Groucho wrote:I think there is no such style definition as Capitalized in rtf, I mean not the way bold or italics are defined, for example.
While RTF does not provide an agreed upon way to store "display as capitalized" or "display as lowercase", there is a standard way to store "display as uppercase" and "display as small caps". When you transfer such content to other applications that support this RTF feature the case of your text should be preserved.

NWP preserves the "capitalized" and "lowercase" formatting options in RTF using Apple's proprietary method. Thus those case changes should be preserved when transferring content to applications produced by Apple (eg: TextEdit), or those that understand their proprietary RTF, like NWP.

Charles WJ
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Charles WJ » 2010-05-10 10:23:44

Martin wrote:
While RTF does not provide an agreed upon way to store "display as capitalized" or "display as lowercase", there is a standard way to store "display as uppercase" and "display as small caps". When you transfer such content to other applications that support this RTF feature the case of your text should be preserved.
I've been trying to use TextSoap to clean up an OCR-ed document that I'm editing in NWP. That document uses Small Caps and they transferred OK from the OCR software which writes RTFs. When I transfer a selection from my NWP document to TextSoap (which understands RTF), the Small Caps are lost. The TextSoap people say that they 'generally use the same mechanism as Apple for handling RTF text.' I also notice that pasting Small Caps from Apple's Pages into NWP loses the Small Caps. Do you have have some insight (or workarounds) on dealing with Small Caps when using RTF in other apps?

Cheers, Charles

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Elbrecht
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Elbrecht » 2010-05-11 03:19:55

Hi Charles -

not sure - but problem is, that NW does FAKE small caps, when needed, but not support by the font family used. I guess when you COPY/PASTE small caps to another app, and loose them - you problably got FAKEd by NW somehow? Always check the font face actually used, to make sure you know, what you are doing with small caps in NW. I know the logic behind FAKing small caps in NW - but it is always very irritating for clean type handling.

HE
MacBook Pro i5
SSD 840/850 Pro
macOS Sierra 10.12.6
Nisus Writer Pro 2.1.8

Charles WJ
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Charles WJ » 2010-05-11 04:33:41

Very interesting and helpful, thanks.

I've done a quick & dirty test. I'm working with Goudy Old Style (don't know if my test applies to all font families). If I convert lower case to Small Caps using the button in the Tools drawer, there's no visible change in the size shown in the Font Family section of the drawer and the text pastes as lower case into another RTF-sensitive programme. If I highlight the lower case and convert using the Menu command Format > Character Case > Display as Small Caps, the Font Family section of the Tools Drawer shows that, for example, a 14 pt font is now 10.5 pt AND the text pastes correctly (i.e. maintains its size). Curious - why would the Small Caps button not have the same effect as the Format Menu? Maybe someone can shine a light here.

Cheers, Charles

Groucho
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Groucho » 2010-05-11 06:43:32

Hi, Charles.

I tried to follow your directions. I used Bitstream Goudy Old Style (spoyal2tt v4.7). I typed some text, 14 pts, lowercase, then I applied both the Small-Caps button and the Format>Character Case>Display as Small-Caps. Either way the size did not change. It does change if I select Edit>Convert>To Small Caps, and it is 10.5 pts. Are you sure you are using the right menu? There are two ways to convert text to Small-Caps.

Cheers, Henry.

Charles WJ
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Charles WJ » 2010-05-11 07:26:41

You're right - my apologies. I mixed up the menus. To get the effect that I was writing about, the sequence is indeed Edit > Convert > To Small Caps. Curiously perhaps, when I highlight the Small Caps in Format > Character Case > Display as Small Caps, I find it ticked AND get exactly the same result with 'converted' text. Likewise with the 'AB' button in the Font Family section of the Tools/Text drawer, although with the 'real' small caps, clicking that button has no visible effect. I find this very confusing, enough to bring on a 'senior moment'.

Groucho
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Groucho » 2010-05-11 09:27:33

Charles said:
with the 'AB' button in the Font Family section of the Tools/Text drawer, although with the 'real' small caps, clicking that button has no visible effect.
The reason that there is no visible effect is that there is no effect at all. Converting a word into small-caps via the Edit menu will transform each lowercase letter into its correspondent uppercase but at a smaller size (usually between 70 and 80 percent. So, if you click on the Ab button, or select the “Display as menu” the program doesn’t find any lowercase letter to show as a smaller uppercase and it does nothing.
It’s like running this macro:
Find ‘[a-z]’, ‘sE-i’
if you are familiar with Nisus macro language.

Greetings, Henry

Charles WJ
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Charles WJ » 2010-05-12 02:24:22

Thanks, I'm afraid that I've been severely challenged by macro languages and Apple Script.

If I've understood what has been written here, some software understands an RTF command to 'display as small caps' while other RTF-aware programmes do not. Checking this idea, I loaded an OCR generated RTF of a document with small caps into several word processors. Nisus, OpenOffice 3 and Word 2008 displayed the small caps correctly while Text Edit, Mellel and Pages displayed the small caps as lower case. If this understanding is right, all I have to do to solve my original TextSoap problem, is to persuade its author to code in the RTF command to 'display as small caps' - correct? The alternative would perhaps be a macro to change the type and size of small caps text appropriately - possible?

Charles

Kino
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Re: A Problem with Case

Post by Kino » 2010-05-12 02:44:35

Charles WJ wrote:The TextSoap people say that they 'generally use the same mechanism as Apple for handling RTF text.'
Then, use a font supporting real Small Caps, Didot or Hoefler Text if you choose it from fonts coming with OS X, and use AB button or Display as Small Caps command to apply Small Caps style. Or the Small Caps button in the Typography panel if it is a non Apple font, e.g. Minion Pro, Palatino Linotype.

I have never used TextSoap but Small Caps thus applied is not lost from TextEdit to NW Pro and vice versa.

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