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Problems with Hebrew Shin

Posted: 2006-07-03 15:38:49
by rabbi
I can't type a hebrew Shin (shift A) or a Sin (option A) no matter what font I use. For the Sin there is a work around (A followed by equal).
I don't know if this is a Nisus problem since I get the same results with Textedit. But if anyone knows a work around it would be greatly appreciated.

A second problem I have (but is more managable) is Nikud will only work well with New Peninim. Every other font the nikud is in the wrong place. (I tried a demo of Mellel and it doesn't have this problem.)

Posted: 2006-07-03 17:51:43
by ssampler
I have English language localization, and I don't really know much more than the Hebrew letters, but have you tried the Hebrew-QWERTY keyboard?

With it I can easily type Shin and Sin on my PB G4 OS X 10.4.7 and NWX 2.7.

Posted: 2006-07-04 06:56:17
by cchapin
I'm relatively new to Macs, so I don't know how this might once have worked (say, under OS 9 or in Nisus Writer Classic), but if I change language in Nisus Writer Express (via the tag in the status bar or via the Format > Language menu) to Hebrew, I can type sin with option-w (or option-shift-W) and shin with shift-W or option-s (or option-shift-S). No combination of modifier keys and A gives me either sin or shin.



Posted: 2006-07-04 18:34:42
by rabbi
Thanks for the quick responses, but neither worked. But since no one else had the same problems I figured it must be something I my end. So I turned off most of my Hebrew fonts and now the problems are gone. Now I just have to figure out which font is the problem one. (Font Book says all the fonts are okay.
Thanks again, it helped me find the problem.

Problems with Hebrew Shin

Posted: 2006-07-05 10:38:39
by rmark
Shalom Rabbi,

I'm sorry you experience difficulties with Nisus Writer Express.

As you noted, because the problem also occurred in TextEdit, this is not a Nisus Writer Express problem.

Aside from New Peninim, what fonts to you refer to when you write "Every other font"?

To the best of my knowledge, there are very few fonts that are designed as OS X Unicode Hebrew fonts.

Still learning myself…,

Posted: 2006-07-16 19:12:24
by rabbi
Thanks Mark, sorry I didn’t get back sooner, I was just trying to figure out my mess.
When I use New Peninim my Nikud shows okay, except for a final Nun with a Komatz (the I and 7). But my main concern is I can’t get the Shin or Sin - It shows like Lucida Grande. This is using NWE, or TextEdit (TextEdit always had the same results as NWE.) In Mellel the letter showed correct but the dot on top was squared - also not acceptable. If I started up my computer in system 9 with Nisus Classic it worked fine.
Cardo - works well except for the Final Nun (a nun at the end of a word) with a komatz, shows the komatz directly under the Final Nun. This happens with any word processor.
SBL Hebrew and Ezra SIL - work properly only in Mellel. In NWE the Nikud is always in the wrong spot (to the left of the letter, even the dot in the Beit and Kof are outside the letter. Also with SBL Hebrew the Sin works but the Shin doesn’t.
I teach Hebrew reading, so Nikud is very important. I just bought Mellel, since I’m already working on my worksheets for September. But I would rather only use Nisus, since I seem to be able to find my way around better. So I’ll continue to use Nisus for most of my work.
I really miss the ease of working with hebrew in Nisus Classic; all the hebrew fonts worked well, all the hebrew fonts were listed together, cut and paste didn’t switch back to english, and if you highlighted the whole page and changed only the font in one language the other didn’t change. (Sorry for the rant, and I assume this is Unicode related, and not nisus fault.

Posted: 2006-07-16 20:21:27
by rabbi
I think I may have partualy solved my problem. Since I've been using Nisus Classic for a long time I always left the Caps Lock on for hebrew to type Nikud. I just accidently forgot to turn on Caps Lock and my Shin and Sin work properly. I checked using Keybaord veiwer and I see that using the option key gets Nikud. (I still prefer the old way since I use Nikud alot, but I'll get use to it.)

To get around the problem with the Final Nun, if I loosen the kerning around ten times, the Kometz goes to the right spot. This works better in New Peninim than Cardo. (Is there any way to set a number for kerning instead of pressing loosen kerning ten times?)

SBL Hebrew and Ezra SIL still don't work well.

Posted: 2006-07-17 11:15:26
by rmark
Shalom Rabbi,

I'm not familiar with the Cardo font (and, believe, me I've seen lots of Hebrew fonts). Tell me more, please: who made it, from where does it come?

I'm glad you turned Caps Lock on. That was a good move. Sorry I didn't think to ask.

As for the SIL fonts, this is an issue that's buried deep inside Apple's text engine (which we use and elaborate on). We have, unconfirmed, reports that this will be resolved in the next version of the OS.

And as for kerning by a number, I'll add that to the official feature request list.

Posted: 2006-07-17 14:35:38
by rabbi
Thanks again for the fast response.

1. The Shin only works if I turn off Caps Lock

2. Cardo can be found at there is a link to it at[/u]

Posted: 2006-07-17 14:37:17
by rabbi

Posted: 2006-07-20 10:30:47
by ProfT
I use cardo extensively and have had similar problems with pointing that goes awry. Sometimes I have been able to resolve this by using the Unicode Hex Input function. So for instance, Cardo consistently has the shureq (FB35) with the dagesh on the wrong side. If entered via the code it's perfect. (I also have trouble in New Pen. w/ any accents over the top of the letters (e.g. the accent Ole 05AB) which cause the letters to enlarge and move up relative to the baseline.

I hope that some of these will resolve in the future. I teach biblical Hebrew and these markings are critical for all the items I need to produce.