superscript, subscript, and line spacing

[spower]

Hi all, I am trying out Nisus Writer Pro. I am loving it, except for how it handles sub/superscript.

NWP scales the character size, but not enough to leave 'multiple' line spacing intact. I found a post on here saying that line spacing will remain intact is it is set to 'Fixed' instead of 'Multiple' but that feels more of a work-around. If I want different lines with different font size, I need to keep manually changing the 'fixed' line spacing along with it. What I would prefer, and what would seem to be the nicest solution, is to be able to set the 'multiple' spacing to, say, 1 and have NWP scale super/subscript appropriately so that the line spacing is not affected. Pages, Word, and (I think) Mellel do this.

NWP developers, any chance this will be changed/implemented soon? I would be an instant customer if it was. Manually altering 'fixed' spacing is a real pain for me, as most things that I write include a lot of super/subscript and have different font sizing throughout.

[martin]

This will probably not change soon, since it's a "feature" of Apple's text engine, which we make use of.

That said, for some fonts there is a way around the problem. If you use a font that has super/sub-script typographic features activating that feature will not affect the line spacing/baseline. So for example, with the Palatino font checking "superiors" for "vertical position" using the system Typography panel will not change the line spacing.

I believe we have a bug filed that NWP should use these font features automatically if they are available for the font you've applied, so you don't have to mess with the typography panel. I'll make sure, since this is something that we might actually be able to change.

[spower]

Thanks for the reply. I understand the issue with the Apple text engine. TextEdit has a huge issue with super/subscript because of this. From what I can see though, NWP is doing something above the basic Apple Text Engine function. NWP is scaling down the character size in super/subscript, so that the line spacing is not messed up quite as badly.

With a little bit of tinkering, it seems that if the character is scaled just a little bit smaller, the line spacing is not messed up at all. For instance, if one is writing in 11pt Times and then uses subscript, the line spacing is pushed too far apart. But, if the subscript characters are then changed to 8pt font manually, the scaling plus the reduction in font size means that the line spacing is fine.

I have no idea what NWP is handling the character scaling under the hood. However, if NWP is coded to scale super/subscript characters to, say, 70% of the original size, then scaling to 50% should mean the line spacing is no longer affected. This seems to be how MS Word handles this issue with its own text engine because the subscript characters are much smaller than in NWP.

In contrast, Pages seems to move the subscript baseline up a few clicks because the subscript characters are not shifted down as much as they are on NWP. This approach also work in NWP if one manually choses Format>Baseline>Raise Baseline 3 times. The result looks exactly like subscript offset in Pages.

Perhaps NWP could use one of these two strategies (apparently already is use by other word processors) to get around the limitation of the Apple Text Engine. This would be great, especially as the default new document in NWP is set to 'multiple' spacing and it does not seem possible to set a 'fixed' line spacing in the Preferences>New File>Format. Just an idea from an otherwise very impressed new user.

[xiamenese]

<snip>

Perhaps NWP could use one of these two strategies (apparently already is use by other word processors) to get around the limitation of the Apple Text Engine. This would be great, especially as the default new document in NWP is set to 'multiple' spacing and it does not seem possible to set a 'fixed' line spacing in the Preferences>New File>Format. Just an idea from an otherwise very impressed new user.

Actually, you should be able set fixed line spacing in Nisus New File ... you just need to set it in the relevant paragraph styles. In fact, the best way to go about this is to set it in "Normal" the way you want, and then make sure that all the other relevant styles are based on "Normal" so that they inherit characteristics that you don't actually change, of which this could be one. I have to admit though, that I have never found a need to use fixed line spacing, so I don't know if that will be inherited, but I can't think of a reason why it should not be.

But to have some way -- available in NNF -- whereby the user could set the sizing and baseline of super- and subscript the way they like it would be really neat.

Mark

[spower]

Yes, I went with this same approach (i.e. setting the Normal style to Fixed and basing my other styles on the this) after my first post on this. It works well and does give nice uniform text layout.

Still, using Multiple spacing allows everything to be much more flexible and involves far less adjusting as one builds a document. I assume that is why it is the default spacing method in NWP and all other word processors.

One example of the sorts of extra formatting/problems involved with Fixed spacing involves using tables to control a combination of images and text. Making a new table defaults to Normal style (which I have set to Fixed spacing to deal with the subscripts). If an image is then inserted into a table cell that has a Normal/Fixed formatting, only a small horizontal bar of the image is shown, equal to the Fixed line spacing pt value! One has to manually increase the Fixed spacing, or manually revert to multiple spacing for that cell to show the full image.

The short summary is that Fixed spacing allows a work-around for the display problem associated with subscripts. But, it causes other problems and is far less flexible than Multiple spacing. Multiple spacing is likely to be the best spacing option in most cases for most users ... if only it could handle subscripts properly! I will keep my fingers crossed that the NWP folks fill figure out a way to do this soon.

[xiamenese]

I take your point fully about Fixed spacing then causing problems in other situations, like table-cells for graphics. In your position, I would use an alternative work-around which would be to leave the Normal style with Multiple spacing and create a new style called something like Body Text with Fixed spacing for use in the text itself, and then for all others where the problem arises — listed paragraphs, quotations, what have you — base them on Body Text rather than Normal.

Can I say, I don't have this problem, as subscripts, in particular, are not something I need to use within blocks of text except extremely rarely, superscripts a bit more often but then I deal with them individually if necessary. On the other hand, I have set my Normal style for font, justification, etc. but no first line indent, then have a Body Text style which has a first line indent. Other styles can then be based on whichever of those I think is more appropriate.

Mark

[spower]

Mark, it sounds like you have a lot of clever ways to get around this. Useful stuff.

But, let's be honest, none of these clever work-arounds should be necessary. The inability of NWP to handle superscripts and subscripts correctly is a bug. No other similarly feature-rich Word processor has this problem.

The NWP folks have used character scaling to partially get around the limitations of the Apple Text Engine (just have a look at subscripts in TextEdit to see how they are usually handled by the Apple Text Engine). With a few more tweaks, maybe along the lines that I suggested, they can completely overcome the bug. I really hope this will be pursued because it is really just a basic typesetting issue.

While super/subscripts may not be used that often by some, they are a standard part of many texts, and particularly common in academic writing (my field and one where Macs are unusually common and therefore a potentially major market for NWP).

For the record, I think NWP does some things that blow away the competition. The styles interface and the Quickfix feature with custom glossaries are two of my favourites.

[xiamenese]

Actually, I'm with you all the way. It would be wonderful if one didn't have to find work-arounds, but I'm not sure I've ever met an app where I haven't had to find one at some time or other.

As I said in an earlier post, I think it would be great if Nisus can find a way of providing us with a way of setting our own baseline and font reduction for subscripts and superscripts. But I'm not a software engineer or programmer and have no idea how difficult that would be while working on the basis of Apple's text engine. I look at Nisus and the many other apps based on the text engine and admit to being full of admiration, and very grateful, for what they've given us so far in terms of usability. I hope they'll manage this one, and sooner rather than later.

Thinking further, the problem does affect me with note references, and I've got round it in the past by adjusting their point sizes individually. I've just been exploring and found that that is easily dealt with by editing the "Note Reference" character style — therefore in Nisus New File — by adding "lower baseline" by -1pt to the style. I tried creating a superscript character style and doing the same. Unfortunately, automatic superscripting of ordinals or when applied through the superscript button doesn't reference it.

So, Martin and Co., would it be possible to include built-in Superscript and Subscript character styles which would be applied appropriately, and which we users could adjust if we wished, in the same way as it's possible to adjust Note Reference?

Mark

[Elbrecht]

So, Martin and Co., would it be possible to include built-in Superscript and Subscript character styles which would be applied appropriately, and which we users could adjust if we wished, in the same way as it's possible to adjust Note Reference?
Mark

Well -

we use/should use Unicode all the way nowadays - i.e. no scaled types anymore, please. There are superscript and subscript figures that fit well in any clever uptodate font - question only is how to enter them. Have a look at them via Character Palette/Code Tables/Superscripts and Subscripts. One could customize one's keyboard if needed, or Nisus could use these characters automatically as Martin wrote. There is definitely no use for scaled chararcters anymore - the hack is over now. Same counts for any other scaled/slanted characters - use true Small Caps, Italics, etc only. It's you/us to care about typography and all else will be fine.

HE

[Hamid]

we use/should use Unicode all the way nowadays - i.e. no scaled types anymore, please.

Then we can have superscript anywhere like this⁷ and this⁸ and this⁹ and this¹⁰ and this,¹¹ etc.

[Elbrecht]

Yeah Hamid -

thanks to the forum update to phpbb 3 lately...

HE

¿ʇı əsnqɐ ʇ,uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
ɹəʇıɹʍ snsıu sı pooɓ ʇɐɥʍ

[spower]

Elbrecht, true super/subscript figures would be great, but a 'better' hack than the current one would be fine for me (and I would guess most) in the meantime. I am talking from a practical standpoint here, not a philosophical one.

In practical terms, scaling hacks are far from over (regardless of whether it should be) in most word processors. As far as I can tell, NWP is currently using this, just not well enough. Custom configuration to use super/subscript figures is fine if you want to go that route. My original point is that a Word processor should not require such elaborate solutions to achieve what is such a basic function of a Word processor. Put another way, one should not have to care about typography deeply, and use any number of possible custom solutions (as we have gone over here), to get a text with super/subscripts that has decent type setting.

Some kind of near-term fix for this would be great.

[Elbrecht]

Contrary -

nothing philosophical involved - Unicode is plain text - any actual word processor should do. Hacks will differ for applications and platforms - but Unicode plain text stays indentical for all involved. You just have to manage how to enter super-/subscripts, but there are cool tools to do the job. I use Ukelele from SIL.org to customize keyboards as needed. All hacks will end up in incompatibility, because each application/platform gets it differently wrong. Sounds philosophical - but is the way to true practice. And concerning decent type setting - stick with the typographers, they know their job.

HE

[spower]

Elbrecht, you are missing my point. You are stating what you think should be used. I know what Unicode is, I am familiar with the advantages that you listed, and that there are many good tools for working with Unicode.

However, what should be used, or what one can use in existing word processors, is different from what is actually used by default in NWP and other word processors to achieve content-rich documents with good typesetting and something beyond basic page layout.

I like the way NWP works and I am not in pursuit of whatever you mean by "true practice". I want to spend my time writing without custom configuring my software and keyboard.

The point of this thread was simply to ask the NWP folks to fix the bug associated with the Super/subscript buttons in the interface of NWP. I made a few suggestions of how this could be done based on how other apps appear to do it, but I am happy for them to do this in whatever way is simplest given the existing architecture of their software.

[Elbrecht]

Dear spower -

Unicode is different, get an OT or AAT font and an application that is truely open to Unicode. And see for ourself - it's as easy as this... That's the way to word-process and lay-out alike, no problems not at all: easy going text handling and far beyond hacked page layout.

HE

People were wise long before they got clever!