nisus.com

I just purchased Nisus Pro after being a Mellel user for a few years. Everything I have seen in Nisus Pro makes sense (except for one thing), and I love the style editor. Most intuitive thing I have ever seen.

However, one thing in Nisus sticks out from all other word processors I have ever used: Left and First Line paragraph indents are relative to the page edge, and the numbers change when the page margin changes. In other words, the paragraph indents are really NOT relative to the edge of the page, but to the text box itself. They are just SPECIFIED relative to the page edge (even when you are in another column)!

I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous. I looked and looked for a way to change this, but unless I'm totally blind, that's just the way it is. There's nothing I can find in the help file about it either.

I have to think this is something inherited from the old Nisus Classic days. Seriously, guys, I can understand wanting to keep this as an option, but as the ONLY way things are done? That's just wrong. And honestly, if nostalgia or "not invented here" syndrome is the reason for keeping this around: for shame.

Ok. Ranting over.

Please, as a paying customer, I ask that you add a preference to make the Ruler relative to the text box, not the page edge. You can even default it to the old behavior, but at least give us the ability to make paragraph indents behave logically.

Also, while you are at it, please add the indent settings to the Paragraph palette. It's stupid to have to specify this ONLY on the ruler. Yes, I know you can double-click the ticks to enter margins by the numbers. Again, why? Please put it on the palette. It belongs there.

These are things that any user coming from any other word processor would expect to find. It will only help you attract more users.

Welcome to the club, mwdiers, and RANT ON!!! You are right on the button.

This has been raised before -- more than once, I seem to remember -- and your comments are absolutely spot on.

Add that the right indent must be specified as the distance from the right text margin of the text box, not to the left edge of the page.

You will have noted, mwdiers, that this is even more confusing than you have stated -- because in the Margins palette does everything right! The left and right margins between the edge of the text box and the page edge are specified according to the nearest page edge -- just as they should be -- with the labels switching from "left/right" to "inner/outer" and the indents following the margins, as they should do, when you go to "facing pages".

The ruler(s) -- both horizontal and vertical (when it finally appears!) -- should have the option of zeroing at the page corner or the margin corner (appropriate to the direction of the language in use). In fact, the old Nisus offered this option and a very nice one it is/was too.

One more thing -- the margins should be locked, specified by the measurements in the Margins palette and/or by something in the ruler(s) that's more than just a drag and more than inserting/changing a tab. Margins that can be so easily altered by the shakey hands of clapped out old writing wrecks or the carefree flying fingers of youth are just bizarre.

But yes, generally a great WP to work with.


Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard
Publisher, Editor, Business Writer
The Worsley Press

FREE Bonus book offer. Get "How to make great ads for (sm)all business" FREE when you buy "Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes?" or "How to Start and Produce a Magazine or Newsletter". Amazon or www.worsleypress.com

First a welcome to mwdiers; I'm glad you're enjoying most of NWP.

mwdiers wrote:owever, one thing in Nisus sticks out from all other word processors I have ever used: Left and First Line paragraph indents are relative to the page edge, and the numbers change when the page margin changes. In other words, the paragraph indents are really NOT relative to the edge of the page, but to the text box itself. They are just SPECIFIED relative to the page edge (even when you are in another column)!

I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous. I looked and looked for a way to change this, but unless I'm totally blind, that's just the way it is. There's nothing I can find in the help file about it either.

I have to think this is something inherited from the old Nisus Classic days.

As you've described, text indents are indeed shown on the ruler relative to the page edge, not the margin / "text box" edge, though internally the indents are stored/applied relative to the margin / text box. As to where this behavior comes from, just look to other Apple applications, eg: TextEdit or Pages. The ruler's zero point is always at the page edge.

Seriously, guys, I can understand wanting to keep this as an option, but as the ONLY way things are done?

I don't see why we couldn't offer up an option that lets users specify indents relative to the margin in the indent editor sheet (or some hypothetical palette). As to the ruler's zero point, that might be trickier, since we inherit all that from the OSX text engine, but it's a possibility. I'll file this all as a feature request or two.

Also, while you are at it, please add the indent settings to the Paragraph palette. It's stupid to have to specify this ONLY on the ruler. Yes, I know you can double-click the ticks to enter margins by the numbers. Again, why? Please put it on the palette. It belongs there.

You're quite right, the lack of indent controls on a palette is a bit perplexing and is something we should add.

Thank you for your suggestions, we appreciate them.

greenmorpher wrote:Add that the right indent must be specified as the distance from the right text margin of the text box, not to the left edge of the page.

I can see how this is confusing. Certainly if we allowed editing the indents relative to the margin, and not the page, the right/tail indent would not be measured from the left side.

You will have noted, mwdiers, that this is even more confusing than you have stated -- because in the Margins palette does everything right! The left and right margins between the edge of the text box and the page edge are specified according to the nearest page edge -- just as they should be -- with the labels switching from "left/right" to "inner/outer" and the indents following the margins, as they should do, when you go to "facing pages".

Textual indents are also mirrored automatically when needed, based on the paragraph's writing direction. The indents are really stored as "head" and "tail" indents. I believe we originally used those terms in the GUI, but we had enough user confusion that we changed them.

My difficulty in thinking about this stuff, Martin, is that it is really so simple and I have a computer which is not less than 2,000 times more powerful (or is it 2,000,000?) than the computers that guided humans to the moon and an even bigger factor than that more powerful than the computer I was using when I had these facilities available in the original Nisus Writer.

Okay -- I understand Apple has not done the best in respect of their text engine, but I really don't want you telling me that in this matter, NWP can't go beyond Text Edit. It must. That's why we buy NWP.

To specify indents in respect of page margins, I want to see you build in the capability for NWP to SHOW some very simple arithmetic going on behind its interface. Clearly, as we have said before, the indents follow the text block margins when we move them or the program moves them (as in the facing pages situation) -- so (most of) the necessary arithmetic is happening.

Why can't the interface SHOW those calculations by giving us the indent figures in respect of the nearest margin?

WELL, IT DOES ... when you look at the Lists palette!

That gives the left (for me, using left>right text) indents in respect of the text block margins! So let's show these numbers when we double click on the indent and tab thingies in the ruler. Not forgetting to also calculate the right indent in respect of the right margin. NWP already calculates the right margin in respect of the right page edge, so what about doing the same for the right indent tick? I ain't rocket surgery, and even if it was, we have a computer that's notg less than 2,000,000,000x more powerful than the one they used to cobble up that rocket that sent those guys to the moon (don't believe everything you see in "The Dish", by the way, even if the essentials are true!).

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard
Publisher, Editor, Business Writer
The Worsley Press

FREE Bonus book offer. Get "How to make great ads for (sm)all business" FREE when you buy "Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes?" or "How to Start and Produce a Magazine or Newsletter". Amazon or www.worsleypress.com

greenmorpher wrote:My difficulty in thinking about this stuff, Martin, is that it is really so simple and I have a computer which is not less than 2,000 times more powerful (or is it 2,000,000?) than the computers that guided humans to the moon and an even bigger factor than that more powerful than the computer I was using when I had these facilities available in the original Nisus Writer.

Getting to the moon also cost tens of billions of dollars. But hopefully we can leave unfair comparisons out of the discussion.

Okay -- I understand Apple has not done the best in respect of their text engine, but I really don't want you telling me that in this matter, NWP can't go beyond Text Edit. It must. That's why we buy NWP.

Indeed. I was merely giving the reason why the ruler's zero point is at the page edge and not the margin. It's the de facto on OSX for Apple software and NWP inherits it.

WELL, IT DOES ... when you look at the Lists palette!

You could also look at style definitions in the style sheet (the attribute "bubbles" beneath the sample area display the indent relative to the margin). Internally all textual indents are stored relative to the margin.

So just to reiterate, the interface doesn't allow for specifying the indents relative to the margin, but we can all agree having a preference would be nice. Same with the ruler's zero point. There's no computational complexity, it's just a matter of spending the time to enhance/override the default behavior of the OSX text system.

martin wrote:You're quite right, the lack of indent controls on a palette is a bit perplexing and is something we should add.

Thank you for your suggestions, we appreciate them.

Thank you, I really appreciate using a product with a responsive and active development team.

And thank you for being so receptive and tollerating my ranting. Hopefully I wasn't too obnoxious?

mwdiers wrote:And thank you for being so receptive and tollerating my ranting. Hopefully I wasn't too obnoxious?

Don't worry, Martin is used to this. Just mention the words "vertical ruler" and see if you can get a reaction out of him...

martin wrote:Getting to the moon also cost tens of billions of dollars. But hopefully we can leave unfair comparisons out of the discussion.

Ah, yes, but you need to see the movie, "The Dish".

WELL, IT DOES ... when you look at the Lists palette!

You could also look at style definitions in the style sheet (the attribute "bubbles" beneath the sample area display the indent relative to the margin). Internally all textual indents are stored relative to the margin.

So just to reiterate, the interface doesn't allow for specifying the indents relative to the margin, but we can all agree having a preference would be nice. Same with the ruler's zero point. There's no computational complexity, it's just a matter of spending the time to enhance/override the default behavior of the OSX text system.

Okay, so let's take that time to get this thing sorted with a consistent interface.

And I won't mention vertical rulers, despite the barracking from the sidelines.

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard
Publisher, Editor, Business Writer
The Worsley Press

FREE Bonus book offer. Get "How to make great ads for (sm)all business" FREE when you buy "Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes?" or "How to Start and Produce a Magazine or Newsletter". Amazon or http://www.worsleypress.com

Sorry, got my quotes mixed up there ...

Cheers, Geoff

mwdiers wrote:And thank you for being so receptive and tollerating my ranting. Hopefully I wasn't too obnoxious?

Not to worry, we take all venting in stride. We know it feels good sometimes

greenmorpher wrote:Ah, yes, but you need to see the movie, "The Dish".

Looks like an enjoyable movie; I've added it to my Netflix streaming queue.

greenmorpher wrote:Sorry, got my quotes mixed up there ...

I went ahead and fixed it. You might not be aware, but you can edit your own posts using the tiny "Edit" bubble in the top-right corner of each post.

Hiya Martin

Thanks for fixing the post -- the edit and quote buttons aren't very salient to my ancient eyes.

"The Dish" is not a particularly well acted or well developed movie -- a mob here called Working Dog who are/were a bunch of comedians making stuff for TV -- shot the whole thing in about three weeks on a budget of about $1.25 (and Australian at that!). But it's fun.

Another one they did is "The Castle" (as in a man's home is his castle).

Cheers, Geoff

Geoffrey Heard
Publisher, Editor, Business Writer
The Worsley Press

FREE Bonus book offer. Get "How to make great ads for (sm)all business" FREE when you buy "Type & Layout: Are you communicating or just making pretty shapes?" or "How to Start and Produce a Magazine or Newsletter". Amazon or www.worsleypress.com